Sie sind vermutlich noch nicht im Forum angemeldet - Klicken Sie hier um sich kostenlos anzumelden  


Das Forum zu "Zettels Raum"

Sie können sich hier anmelden
Dieses Thema hat 8 Antworten
und wurde 315 mal aufgerufen
 Weitere Themen
Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

26.04.2021 23:58
Plastikmüll Antworten

Ist noch nicht rund, weil ich gerade erst darüber gestolpert bin. Aber das Argument "wir müssen Plastik vermeiden, weil die Ozeane zumüllen," kombiniert mit dem Gegenargument "wir recyceln; sollen die, die am meisten in die Flüsse werfen, sich an die Nase fassen" scheint einen Faktor auszublenden. Davon abgesehen, daß mir hier der übliche Umweltalarmismus mal wieder hochgejazzt scheint.


The Megyn Kelly Show
"We have good solutions but it was the effort to recycle that resulted in us shipping our plastic waste to poor countries which then ended up making its way into the oceans."

on recycling plastics. Listen below & download the FULL show:

4:13 nachm. · 26. Apr. 2021·Twitter Media Studio (mit Link zum Podcast)


Michael Shellenberger
Please recycle your aluminum, glass & paper but throw your plastic in the trash can not the recycling bin

That's bc 90% of our plastic waste is *not* recycled & instead shipped to poor nations where it ends up in the ocean

4:18 nachm. · 26. Apr. 2021·Twitter Web App

3.) Wir sind mal wieder Weltmeister, dank der Grünen.

Zitat von
Plastic Waste: Which Countries Export & Import Plastic Waste? by Katharina Buchholz,

Sep 14, 2020

The global battle about who will deal with the world’s trash is raging on. After China banned the import of plastic waste in 2019, other Asian countries have expanded into the sector that carries the inherent risk of air, land and maritime pollution.

While the recycling of foreign plastic waste can be lucrative, lack of regulations and oversight have caused a myriad of problems in receiving countries. After China backed out, Vietnam and Malaysia became some of the biggest plastic waste importers in Asia, while Turkey also appeared on the scene as a net importer of European plastic waste. Most of the plastics arriving in Asia are routed through Hong Kong.

Experts expect the streams of plastic waste exported from industrialized nations to continue shifting to countries where regulation are not (yet) in place. Most of the plastic waste comes from countries like Japan, the United States and Germany, which were the biggest net exporters of plastic scrap and waste in 2019. According to data retrieved from the UN Comtrade platform, Japan shipped more than 550,000 tons abroad in the previous year, while importing almost no foreign plastic waste, resulting in net exports of around 530,000 tonnes. Germany was responsible for net exports of 413,000 tons, while the U.S. clocked in more than 317,000 tons.

Als das Recyceln und das Plastikflaschenpfand vor gut 20 Jahren hier Pflicht wurden, war überall zu lesen: daraus ließe sich nichts Brauchbares herstellen. Aber wenn die Recyclingspflicht dazu beigetragen hat, daß umso mehr Müll erzeugt wird, dann wäre das ein 1A-Beispiel für einen technologischen Racheeffekt.

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire

Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

27.04.2021 00:19
#2 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

Der Shellenberger-Tweet mit seinen Antworten hat's in sich.

Mike "Exempt from Disclosure" Munger
Antwort an
Recycling glass is actually a sham, in most (but not all) states. Baltimore recently had to admit this:

Paper and aluminum should be recycled, sometimes. THat's it. For MOST other things, recycling HARMS the environment.

5:58 nachm. · 26. Apr. 2021·TweetDeck

Baltimore County Admits It Hasn't Been Recycling Glass for 7 Years. It Still Encourages Residents to Recycle Glass.

For the past seven years, the jars and bottles that residents dutifully placed in their blue bins have been being junked instead.

"There are numerous issues with glass recycling, including increased presence of shredded paper in recycling streams which contaminates materials and is difficult to separate from broken glass fragments, in addition to other limitations on providing quality material," county spokesperson Sean Naron told The Baltimore Sun.

Glass recycling reportedly stopped in 2013, the same year the county opened a $23 million single-stream recycling facility, according to the Sun article.

Chemical & Engineering News notes that only 40 percent of glass collected by single-stream recycling services ends up being recycled into new products, compared to 90 percent of glass in multi-stream collection systems.

The same article notes that the cost of transporting heavy glass from recycling centers to glass manufacturers is often prohibitively high, meaning it's often more economical to just make glass out of new materials.

Regardless of the material in question, the American recycling industry has been going through a crisis over the last several years. Rising rates of contamination and the effective closure of a major export market in China, which stopped accepting most American plastic, have left material processing facilities with no willing buyers. Many of the recyclables that are collected therefore end up in landfills or incinerators.

Michael Shellenberger
Antwort an
I agree which is why I didn't say don't recycle, I said don't recycle plastics. There's an inherent physical reason why it's not economic to recycle it. All discussed in my book!

Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All

4:47 nachm. · 26. Apr. 2021·Twitter Web App

6 Std.
So who's held responsible for peddling the plastic recycling myth for the past 30 years?

Michael Shellenberger
Antwort an
The usual suspects. Greenpeace and the green lobby, lazy journalists in the the news media, and all of us who are irrationally bothered by the idea of landfills and incineration
5:51 nachm. · 26. Apr. 2021·Twitter Web App

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire

Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

27.04.2021 00:45
#3 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

Aus dem verlinkten Interview in der Megyn Kelly Show:

Interviewer: I have to drink out of a paper straw because it's the law, and my one comfort is: maybe I'm saving a baby turtle. So, AM I saving a baby turtle, or is this literally "teaspoons in the oceans" that we're trying to resolve here?

Shellenberger: Yeah. Well, there's a lot to unpack. And the first thing is that before we had plastics made out of fossil fuels, which is made from a by-product from the petrochemical industry. So, in other words: most plastics that we use today are actually a productive reuse of a waste byproduct. And so, if you think of it that way: what did we have for "plastics" before we had petrochemical plastics? We used animals! So we used the tusks from elephants to make piano keys and billiard balls, and then we used the shells from sea turtles to make what was misnamed "tortoiseshell glass", and we would rip the shells off sea turtles in really brutal fashion and we almost wiped out sea turtles by using their shells for plastics. So what saved sea turtles was using plastics from fossils because we then no longer needed to hunt sea turtles to extinction. So in truth, plastic has saved wildlife, not killed it. As for the plastic waste in the ocean, it appears that it's almost entirely a function of attempting to recycle. Basically 90 percent of the plastics that we pretend to recycle is not recycled, and most of it is shipped, has long been shipped, to poor and developing countries. China, a couple of years ago, finally said they wouldn't take it anymore.

So, it is good to recycle your aluminum cans and your tin cans and your glass and paper - these are all things that are good to recycle because the process of recycling ... It's worth to recycle. It's not worth it to recycle plastic. It's so light, and it's not high-quality enough that you just end up using more labor and energy to recycle it. We have a good solution of plastic waste, and it's landfills, which we use mostly in the United States and in Europe and in other countries like Japan they incinerate. Their incineration wasn't as good as it was today 40 years ago. But today, you know, in Tokyo, where people are famously paranoid of pollution, they incinerate their plastic waste right in the middle of the city and it's done safely. So we HAVE good solutions, but it was the effort to recycle that resulted in shipping our plastic waste in poor countries which then ended up making its way into the biosphere.

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire

Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

27.04.2021 01:02
#4 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

PS. Edward Tanner nennt das in "Die Tücken der Technik" (1996) "technologische Racheeffekte."

Der Terminus technicus für eine "Lösung," die das ursprüngliche Problem multiplziert, ist Kobra-Effekt.

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire

Martin Offline

Beiträge: 3.773

27.04.2021 06:19
#5 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

Nicht nur in Tokio, sondern auch in Stuttgart wird der Plastikmüll vor Ort verbrannt: Und wenn am deutschen Wesen die Welt genesen soll, dann kann das doch weltweit propagiert werden. Dann bekommt der Müll einen kleinen Wert, über den man in anderen Ländern einen Markt für fleißige Müllsammler schaffen könnte.


Frank2000 Offline

Beiträge: 2.629

27.04.2021 10:43
#6 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

Technische Lösungen für solche Probleme sind unerwünscht. Weil das die "überfällige Transformation zur sozialistisch-ökologischen Gesellschaft" verzögern könnte.

Jeder, der Merkel stützt, schützt oder wählt, macht sich mitschuldig.
“Die gefährlichsten Unwahrheiten sind Wahrheiten mäßig entstellt”, Georg Cristof Lichtenberg

Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

27.04.2021 13:25
#7 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

Zu Shellenbergers Buch gab es im vorigen Jahr einen Hinweis auf der Achse:

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire

Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

04.05.2021 00:56
#8 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

Das Buch von Shellenberger ist heute geliefert worden ("Apocalypse Never: Why Environmental Alarmism Hurts Us All"). Irgendwie ist mir das unerklärlicherweise entgangen, als das vorigen Juli erschienen ist. (Vielleicht, weil ich zu der Zeit nicht jeden Tag einen Blick auf die Achse geworfen habe.) Aber das Ding ist eine staunenswerte Lektüre - nicht zuletzt, weil Shellenberger seit Jahrzehnten ein passionierter Umweltschützer ist. Nur kennt er sich eben deswegen auch mit der Lage vor Ort aus. Anlaß, das Buch zu schreiben, waren die versuchten Stillegungen der Londoner Ubahn durch die Chaoten von "Extinction Rebellion" im Sommer 2019 im Zug der Klimahüpferei. Ihm ist da ob der grellen Appocalypso die Hutschnur gerissen.

Das Buch ist von der Art: wenn man die Gewohnheit hat, Stellen anzustreichen, kann man auf jeder Seite den Rand rot markieren. Selbst eingefleischten Öko-Optimisten wie mir klappt da des öfteren der Kiefer nach unten. Und das ist alles massenweise mit Links auf Papers und Berichte dokumentiert (Fußnoten S. 2883-393). Mit netten Kapitelüberschriften: "Earth's Lungs Are Not burning," "The Sixth Extinction Is Canceled," "Sweatshops Save the Planet," und "Greed Saved the Whales, not Greenpeace." Ich stelle mir gerade vor, man würde das gläubigen Grünen und treuen ÖR-Konsumenten vorlesen: nach 20 Seiten würden sie sich die Ohren zuhalten, nach 50 würden sie Schreikrämpfe und Schnappatmung bekommen...

Zitat, S. 151-52:

Had Germany invested $ 580 billion into new nuclear power plants instead of renewables like solar and wind farms, it would be generating 100 percent of its electricity from zero-emission source and have sufficient zero-carbon electricity to power all of its cars and light trucks, as well.

S. 152:

When most people refer to nuclear waste, they are referring to the used nuclear fuel rods. After they cool for two or three years spent in fuel pools in nuclear plants, they are put into steel and concrete canisters and stored on land in a manner known as dry cask storage. This makes nuclear the only form of eletricity that internalizes its waste product. All other forms externalize their waste into the natural environment.

One of the best features of nuclear waste is that there is so little of it. All the used nuclear fuel ever generated in the United States can fit onto a single football field stacked less than seventy feet high.

S. 32:

Agricultural expansion in Brazil is happening nearly identically to how it occurred in Europe hundreds of years ago.

Between 500 and 1350, forests went from covering 80 percent of western and central Europe to covering half of that. Historians estimate that the forests of France were reduced from being thirty million hectares (about seventy-four million acres) to thirteen million hectares (about thirty-two million acres) between 800 and 1300. Forests covered 70 percent of Germany in the year 900 but just 25 percent by 1900.

And yet developed nations, particularly European ones, which grew wealthy thanks to deforestation and fossil fuels, are seeking to prevent Brazil and other tropical nations, including the Congo, from developing the same way. Most of them, including Germans, produce more carbon emissions per capita, including by burning biomass, than do Brazilians even when taking into account Amazon deforestation.

Der letzte Satz ist so ein Kieferklapper. Und wenn man in die Fußnoten schaut, sind die Werte für Brasilien über das SEEG des Climate Observatory ermittelt, einer Vereinigung von 50 verschiedenen NGOs (also kaum geschönt), die für DE stammen von Bumdesumweltministerium. Danach lag der CO2-Ausstoß 2018 für DE pro Kopf bei 10,0 Tonnen, für Brasilien im gleichen Jahr bei 9,5 Tonnen pro Kopf, Waldbrände und Abholzung eingerechnet.

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire

Ulrich Elkmann Offline

Beiträge: 9.641

04.05.2021 01:18
#9 RE: Plastikmüll Antworten

S. 149:

According to the United Naotins, twenty-eight firefighters died after putting out the Chernobyl fire, and nineteen first responders died in the next twenty-five years because of "various reasons" including tuberculosis, cirrhosis of the liver, heart attacks, and trauma. Tne U.N. concluded that "the assignement of radiation as the cause of death has become less clear."

While the death of any firefighter is tragic, it's worth putting that number in perspective. Eighty-four fiefighters died in the United States in 2018, and 343 died during the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Geraldine Thomas points out that the only public health impact from Chernobyl beyond the deaths in the first responders were twenty thousand documented cases of thyroid cancer in those aged under eighteen at the time of the accident. In 2017, the U.N. concluded that only 25 percent, five thousand, can be attributed to Chernobyl radiation. In earlier studies, the U.N. estimated there could be up to sixteen thousand cases attributable to Chernobyl radiation by 2065, while to date there have been five thousand.

Since thyroid cancer has a mortality rate of 1 percent, that means the expected deaths caused by Chernobyl will just be 50 to 160 over an eighty-year lifespan.

"Thyroid cancer is not what people think of as a cancer," said Geraldine, "because it has such a low mortality rate when treated properly. Suddenly it becomes something you shouldn't be scared of. It's not a death sentence. It shouldn't reduce a patient's life. The key is replacement hormones, and that wasn't an issue because thyroxine is dirt cheap."

S. 151:

Nuclear is the safest way to make reliable electricity. In fact, nuclear has saved more than two million lives to date by preventing the deadly air pollution that shortens the lives of seven million people per year.

For that reason, replacing nuclear energy with fossil fuels costs lives. A study published in 2019 found that Germany's phase-out is costing its citizens $12 billion a year, with more than 70 percent of the cost resulting from 1,100 excess deaths from "local air pollution emitted by the coal-fired plants operating in place of the shutdown nuclear plants.

"Les hommes seront toujours fous; et ceux qui croient les guérir sont les plus fous de la bande." - Voltaire


Bitte beachten Sie diese Forumsregeln: Beiträge, die persönliche Angriffe gegen andere Poster, Unhöflichkeiten oder vulgäre Ausdrücke enthalten, sind nicht erlaubt; ebensowenig Beiträge mit rassistischem, fremdenfeindlichem oder obszönem Inhalt und Äußerungen gegen den demokratischen Rechtsstaat sowie Beiträge, die gegen gesetzliche Bestimmungen verstoßen. Hierzu gehört auch das Verbot von Vollzitaten, wie es durch die aktuelle Rechtsprechung festgelegt ist. Erlaubt ist lediglich das Zitieren weniger Sätze oder kurzer Absätze aus einem durch Copyright geschützten Dokument; und dies nur dann, wenn diese Zitate in einen argumentativen Kontext eingebunden sind. Bilder und Texte dürfen nur hochgeladen werden, wenn sie copyrightfrei sind oder das Copyright bei dem Mitglied liegt, das sie hochlädt. Bitte geben Sie das bei dem hochgeladenen Bild oder Text an. Links können zu einzelnen Artikeln, Abbildungen oder Beiträgen gesetzt werden, aber nicht zur Homepage von Foren, Zeitschriften usw. Bei einem Verstoß wird der betreffende Beitrag gelöscht oder redigiert. Bei einem massiven oder bei wiederholtem Verstoß endet die Mitgliedschaft. Eigene Beiträge dürfen nachträglich in Bezug auf Tippfehler oder stilistisch überarbeitet, aber nicht in ihrer Substanz verändert oder gelöscht werden. Nachträgliche Zusätze, die über derartige orthographische oder stilistische Korrekturen hinausgehen, müssen durch "Edit", "Nachtrag" o.ä. gekennzeichnet werden. Ferner gehört das Einverständnis mit der hier dargelegten Datenschutzerklärung zu den Forumsregeln.

Xobor Xobor Forum Software
Einfach ein eigenes Forum erstellen